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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:06/30/2008 10:48 AM)
Naqbel mieghek, tal-inqas fil-jiem tal-festa ghandu jintuza il-Latin biex tinzamm is-solennita tal-jum. Ghal minn jargumenta li in-nies ma jifmux il-latin, jiddispjacini imma dawn narhom argumenti banali. Mela ghax jinghad il Kredu jew il Pater Noster mhux kullhadd jaf it tifsira taghhom? ovjament ma nipretendix li il-qari jsir bil-latin ukoll, imma il bqija ghala le? barra minn hekk nahseb tajjeb naraw x qed jigri barra minn Malta ukoll; b modd specjali wara il Motu Propju tas sena l-ohra, mhux talli qed jerga jiddahal l-uzu tal-latin izda qed jerga jintuza ir rit Tridentin, sfortunatament jider li Hawn Malta ghadna naqra lura biex naslu s hawn.
Ha nibghatilkom zewg links interessanti ( ghalkemm nahseb li bosta dilettanti rawhom kemm il darba), biex kulhadd ikollu idea ta x qed isir barra min Malta f dan ir rigward:
http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/
http://juventutem.org/pages/en/home.php
Rigward il- Juventutem interessanti li din hi Ghaqda ta zaghzagh li tipromovi il liturgija bir rit Tridentin, ghaqda imxerda mad dinja kollha, forsi ta min ninghaqdu bejnietna u inwaqfu il ferha ta Malta x tahsbu? b hekk inkunu qed inwetqu xi haga li tista tiswa ta gid biex nikkonservaw it-tradizzjonijiet Kattolici ta pajjizna u mhux ingergru biss. niehu pjacir jekk jkun hawn minn jaghati l-ideat tieghu dwar dan.
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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:06/30/2008 16:03 PM)
Nixtieq nghid prosit lil dan li kiteb hawn qabli. jidher bic-car li hawn Malta il-Latin huwa mixtieq anke miz-zghazagh stess. Nahseb li l-knisja ghandha tahseb sew dwar x'inhu jigri madwarna. L-impressjoni li hadna hija li l-knisja dan l-ahhar qed taqa wisq ghad-decizjonijiet tal-popolin. Il-knisja ghandha tahseb sew qabel ma twettaq xi haga u mhux timxi malkurrent bhalma gara fis-Sinodu. Spiccat biex belghet u accettat kull kelma li n-nies ghogobha tikteb fuq il-kwestjonarju. Ir-riti antiki u tradizzjonali ghandhom jibqghu kif inhuma specjalment fil-granet tal-festa. Komplu iktbu u min ikollu xi stampi jew links ippustjawhom f'dan il-forum halli nzidu u nuru lil kulhadd li hawn Malta hawn interess f'dawn l-affarijiet.
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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:07/01/2008 04:45 AM)
Jien zghazugh ta' 18-il sena, niehu gost nattendi il-quddies fejn jintuza l-Latin. Jiena wiehed dilettant ta' l-affarijiet marbuta ma' knisja bhal tizjin ecc. Ghalkemm qatt ma naqbel li jitnehha l-latin, nemmen li ghandu jkun hemm moderazzjoni. Li kyre eleison, il-Gloria, is-Sanctus , il-Pater Noster u l-Agnus dei jsiru bil-latin ma fiha xejn hazin. Lanqas li jintuza l-Latin f'Jum il-Festa. Biss gieli kont ghal quddies u smajt il-prefazju u t-talb ta' wara l-konsagrazzjoni kollu bil-latin u dan ma tantx naqbel mieghu. Talb li semmejt qabel u li naqbel li jsir bil-latin huwa komuni u issa kulhadd jaf xi jfisser. Izda talb iehor irridu noqoghdu attenti.
Biex insolvu nahseb din il-problema dwar jekk nuzawx il-maltin jew il-latin inhoss li ghandna nahdmu biex nghallmu u nrawmu fit-tfal l-imhabba lejn il-latin u s-sbuhija tieghu. Issib atitudni negattiva hafna ta' min idejqu l-latin, li tirrifletti hazin fuq it-tfal, ghalhekk hemm bzonn li din l-atitudni tinbidel biex hekk nghinu izjed it-tfal japprezzaw izjed l-uzu tal-latin waqt il-quddiesa.
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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:07/07/2008 16:02 PM)
Jien zaghzugh ta' 25 sena u jiddispjacini li minkejja li nhobb il-festi liturgici kollha, mhux biss dawk titulari, qed inkun kostrett li fil-gimgha tal-festa tal-parrocca tieghi nitlaq il-barra u nfittex postijiet ohra! Antifona bil-Latin, ghasar imqanzah mal-quddiesa, tantum ergo bil-Latin ma nafux x'inhu, l-ilbies avolja ghandna apparat sabih lanqas biss jintuza. X'immur naghmel?! Imqanqal mill-appell ta' Monsinjur Arcisqof, ta' kull sena naghmel ezami tal-kuxjenza" "Din is-sena, il-festa ressqitni lejn Alla?" Jiddispjacini li t-twegiba le.... is-sacerdoti tal-lokal ejja ha mmorru u lanqas kaz ta' xejn, aktar u aktar meta ssib min jghidlek "Nisperaw li qatt ma jinbidlu l-affarijiet" inkella "hallik mill-hmerijiet".... insomma niehu gost immur f'parrocci fejn dak li hu tradizzjonali ghadu jkun esegwit imma le fil-parrocca tieghi....
hbieb, jekk taghmlu xi hsieb li ninghaqdu f'xi ghaqda, nitlobkom hallu messagg f'dan is-sit: ser nibda nzuru kontinwament u nheggeg li iva, ahna z=zghazagh ninghaqdu ghax fejn hemm l-ghaqda..... hemm is-SAHHA!!
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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:07/11/2008 15:44 PM)
Jiddependi jekk hux ser naghtu kuncert nahseb jew niehdu sehem fil-Liturgija. Jekk biex niehdu sehem naghmluh bil-Malit jekk ghal kuncert isir bil-Latin
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Reply To Guest
(Date Posted:07/12/2008 08:20 AM)
Reply to is_aimoo_guest (07/11/2008 15:44 PM) Jiddependi jekk hux ser naghtu kuncert nahseb jew niehdu sehem fil-Liturgija. Jekk biex niehdu sehem naghmluh bil-Malit jekk ghal kuncert isir bil-Latin M'ghandu x'jaqsam xejn. Jien ghalija iz-zewg lingwi sbieh, imma l-Latin ghandu xi haga sabiha meta jintuz fil-knisja. Billi jintuza l-Latin ma jfissirx li n-nies ma tkunx tifhem x'inhu ghaddej. F'parrocci fejn verament jafu jorganizzaw festa tajba u festa religjuza kif suppost qed jipprovdu lill-kongregazzjoni migbura booklet fejn fuq naha ghandek il-verzjoni bil-latin u fuq in-naha l-ohra translation bil-Malti. F'dan il-pajjiz hekk imdorrijin. Naqtghu kollox fil-qasir, basta jsir. Anke meta jitkellem xi hadd, dak li jghid nibqghu nirrepetuh bhalu, bhal pagagall. M'hemmx fhiex tiskanta hux: illum aktar ma tghid kontra l-festi aktar iqisuk tal-moda. Anke l-knisja waqghet f'dan l-istat. Ara f'hiex wasalna! Hekk se nkomplu nghallmuhom lil uliedna?
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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:07/13/2008 07:36 AM)
Fl-ahhar gewwa Malta fetah forum fejn il-liturgija tista` tigi diskussa. Dejjem kellhi qalbi maqsuma li hadd mhu ser jitkellem dwar il-Motu Proprio. Ghaliex f' Malta ghadha ma saritx quddiesa fil-forma straordinarja?
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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:07/13/2008 15:20 PM)
Il-quddiesa Tridentina. Veru, mela x'inhu? Allajbierek f'dan il-pajjiz ghadha ma saritx wahda. L-ewwel haga li rridu nsemmu hija kemm huma dawk in-nies li jafu biha? Ftit ftit li xejn,forsi 4 nies kolti u edukati. Ta' min hija r-responsabbilta`? Ghaliex il-knisja f'Malta ghadha mhuxteduka bizzejjed f'dan il-qasam? Ghaliex hafna min-nies lijmorru l-knisja, jafu fuq l-imhabba t'Alla imma mbaghad ma jafu xejn fuq certu duttrina u certu drawwiet liturgici bhalma huma l-Mutu Proprio u l-Quddiesa Tridentina? Il-knisja ghandha tkun akar responsabbli f'dan ir-rigward. Hemm certu dmirijiet li mhux qed taqdihom. Tghid ghax hemm hafna minnhom li certu drawwiet liturgici ma jriduhomx jidhlu? Ammettu dik il-verita`. Hafna qassisin, ma jammettux li diga huma kontra l-festi ahseb u ara kemm se jammettu li huma kontra l-quddiesa Tridentina u kontra l-Muto Proprio. Hemm bzonn li Monsinjur Arcisqof jiehu riedni f'idejh u jgib lil din id-Djocesi f'postha ghax l-affarijiet baqghu li kienu.
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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:07/15/2008 04:29 AM)
Dwar edukazzjoni u r-rwol ta' Monsinjur Arcisqof nemmen li ghandek ragun. Izda nemmen ukoll li l-membri lajci tal-Knisja ghandhom sehem x'jaghtu f'din il-materja.
Ejja niehdu l-ezempju ta' l-Inghilterra. Meta l-isqfijiet kattolici kollha u l-maggoranza tal-kleru bi ftit eccezzjonijiet accettaw ir-riformi liberali ta' min interpreta hazin il-koncilju fis-sittinijiet, kienu lajci li waqqfu il-Latin Mass Society. Dawn kienu jigu ridikolati mill-kleru u minn hafna lajci izda qatt ma qatghu qalbhom u baqghu jorganizzaw ruhhom sakemm issa fl-ahhar il-Knisja tathom ragun. X'atmosfera brillanti tista` tislot mir-ritratti tal-Quddiesa bir-rit straordinarju tal-Knisja meta l-Kardinal Hoyos qaddes Pontifikal gol-Katidral Metropolitan gewwa Londra (Westminster). Il-ghala hadd ma jikteb ittra lill-edituri fejn jitolbu b'mod miftuh id-drtitt moghti lilhom sena ilu permezz tal-Motu Proprio. Mela xi hadd ghandu dritt jaghzel f-liema materji nobdu lill-Papa u f-liema le?
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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:07/28/2008 04:03 AM)
Qrajt b'interess dak li nkiteb hawn dwar il-Latin u l-Malti fil-knejjes taghna.
Jien illum ghandi 25 sena u personalment inhobb hafna l-muzika - indoqq l-orgni u taffaxxinani immens il-muzika sagra, Maltija u barranija, ghalhekk nisma hafna kant bil-Latin ukoll. Sa minn sekli ilu diga kellna Maltin bhalna li fejn tidhol il-muzika sagra hallewlna wirt kbir immens u ta' min japprezzah. Illum il-gurnata ghadhom jittiehdu inizjattivi biex muzika antika tinqaleb ghall-format ta' zmienna u jinhargu recordings ta' muzika arkivjata fil-knejjes taghna.
L-ewwelnett ghalija personalment il-Latin anke nisimghu jinqara biss ukoll niehu gost ghax ghandu fonetika sabiha - din il-haga sa issa ma sibtha fl-ebda lingwa ohra. Barra minn hekk, hija l-lingwa li kapaci tghaqqad lill-Knisja fis-sens li tkun f'liema pajjiz tkun, tista' tkanta jew tirrispondi bil-Latin il-komunita' kollha.
Imma huwa hawn li hemm bzonn tidhol edukazzjoni kbira dwar il-Latin. Illum tisma li "ghax qeghdin fis-seklu 21", u "se nibqghu antikwati", u "hafna qrid"...u l-kumplament... li ghalija kultant huma argumenti ta' min qisu ma jilhaqx l-gheneb u jghid li qares. Veru wkoll li ghandna sacerdoti u religjuzi li qed jaghmlu kollox qisu ta' bilfors, jew ghalihom ix-xinxilli jigu qabel il-ministeru taghhom u sfortunatament inaffru lil xi nies aktar milli jigbduhom lejn il-Knisja u wara kollox lejn Alla.
Jien nemmen hafna fl-importanza ta' l-edukazzjoni u l-formazzjoni. Jiddispacini hafna meta nisma nies li suppost jaghtu ezempju - imma fit-taghlim lit-tfal jghidulhom KONTRA l-Latin, dan kollu ghax lilhom ma jolqothomx jew ma jifhmuhx.
Fejn wiehed jista' jitghallem ma se jkun qed jitlef xejn, anzi ikun ta' gwadann. Ta' min iheggeg ghall-inizjattiva favur it-taghlim tajjeb, anke fejn jidhol il-Latin. Illum hawn hafna ghajnuniet...bhal xi siti fl-internet li jghinuk tkun taf x'ifisser il-Latin tal-Quddiesa. Ghandha tinghata l-importanza li jisthoqqlu l-Malti imma tkun sfortuna li nitilfu l-Latin mill-knejjes taghna.
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Pro_Tridentina
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Re:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:07/29/2009 07:08 AM)
Hbieb,
dan hu t-tieni kumment li qed nibghat. L-ewwel wiehed kien xi xhur ilu (bhala "Guest") u gie edited billi saret smiley, qisu kont qed nghid xi hmerija. Ghal min jinteressah, twaqqfet socjeta' favur il-Quddiesa Tridentina kif ukoll saru zviluppi ohra. Min hu nteressat, jikteb f'dan il-Forum.
Godwin
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Oremus pro pontifice nostro Benedicto. Dominus conservet eum et vivificet eum et beatum faciat eum in terra et non tradat eum in animam inimicorum eius.
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Andrija
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Re:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:07/29/2009 07:25 AM)
Qed niehu gost nara li hawn nies ohra infurmati dwar dawn l-izvillupi fil-Knisja Kattolika. Jien nahseb li Malta hawn aktar nies nteressati milli nahsbu imma qeghdin mferrxin. Huwa tajjeb li nuzaw dawn il-mezzi ta' kommunikazzjoni biex ninghaqdu biex ngibu l-bidla mixtieqa. Ahna mhux qed nfittxu li ninponi xejn fuq hadd imma qed nitolbu din il-quddiesa ghal min hu interessat fija.
Jien qieghed fil-Pro Tridentina u ghandi ukoll kuntatt mas-sacerdot li jiehu hsieb Juventutem. Dawk iz-zghazagh interessati u jkunu jafu aktar jistaw jibaghtuli e-mail fuq mediolanum1899@hotmail.com. Tajjeb li tkunu tafu li din il-fergha ghadha ma nfetthitx imma qieghed f'kuntatt ma' dan is-sacerdot tal-Fraternita' Sacerdotali San Pietru (Sacerdoti Tradizzjonalisti in comunione ma' Ruma).
Jekk ghandkhom facebook tistaw issibuna fuq - http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/group.php?gid=55584341077&ref=ts
Andrea
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Pro_Tridentina
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13#
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From: Malta
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RE:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:08/08/2009 03:55 AM)
X'qalu l-Papiet minn żmien il-Konċilju Vatikan II dwar il-Latin:
The Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of any merely human society. For it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore,that the language it uses should be noble, majestic, and non-vernacular. (Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientiae, 1962)
Pope John Paul II has recommended the use of Latin in the Roman liturgy and in seminary training. In a message to a conference being held at the Salesian University in Rome, the Holy Father emphasized that Latin remains the official language of the Catholic Church, and expressed his desire that 'the love of that language would grow ever strong among candidates for the priesthood.' The Pope's message itself was written in Latin, and read by Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican Secretary of State. The conference to which the Pope addressed this message was commemorating the 40th anniversary of Veterum Sapientia, the apostolic constitution in which Pope John XXIII wrote of the importance of Latin as an important part of 'the patrimony of human civilization.' Pope John Paul underlined the same message, pointing out that the use of Latin 'is an indispensable condition for a proper relationship between modernity and antiquity, for dialogue among different cultures, and for reaffirming the identity of the Catholic priesthood.' (CWNews, 2002)
In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers of the Church's tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung. Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. (Pope Benedict XVI, Sacramentum Caritatis, 2007)
(Message edited by Pro_Tridentina On 08/08/2009 03:58 AM)
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Oremus pro pontifice nostro Benedicto. Dominus conservet eum et vivificet eum et beatum faciat eum in terra et non tradat eum in animam inimicorum eius.
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Pro_Tridentina
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From: Malta
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Re:Bil-Latin jew bil-Malti?
(Date Posted:08/17/2009 01:34 AM)
Sfortunatament, hawn min ma jaf xejn fuq il-Latin u l-Quddiesa Tridentina:
http://angelomicallef.blogspot.com/2009/08/habemus-papam.html I recently came across an interesting website with an argument I knew had followers but I never knew had followers so keen on it. The website is http://www.protridentina.org/. The group's stated aim as per the website is that of promoting the Tridentine mass or rather the return of the Tridentine mass in Malta and Gozo as per Papal policy.
For those who perhaps might now know what the Tridentine mass is; this is basically the mass that used to be celebrated prior to the Second Vatican Council meaning a mass in Latin with the priest giving the people his back as can be seen from the picture with this blog and with certain different prayers including a prayer during the time of Lent praying for the conversion of Jews, something deemed most offensive by the Jewish community and rightfully so.
Obviously its a free world and those who believe that the Tridentine Mass should return are free to argue so and that much I have no qualms about; more so when some within that category happen to be friends of mine. It is however in my view an outdated, andequated argument which clearly fails to understand modern times.
The church cannot fossilize itself; indeed the Roman Catholic Church is already plagued by a mentality of fossilization and a lack of catching up with the times. To revert to Latin is merely to increase the severity of the situation. Mass should be a spiritual expience where one feels closer to God and not merely a trip down traditions lane. One can only feel close to God if one is understand what is being said!
Imagine if someone read out the works of Shakespeare in Chinese; would you appreciate the beauty of Shakespeare's stories? Most certainly not!
Some might argue that Pope Benedict XVI merely made it possible for the Tridentine Mass to be held and by no means turned it into obligatory. All too true, but it is nonetheless a regression; a regression which certainly caused Pope John XXIII to turn in his grave!!
Let us not become the Christian version of Iran! Iran under the Shah had all the modern commodities of western life and indeed had a western culture. It was the ascension to power of the Ayatollah Khomeini that Iran reverted back to the strictly Muslim society it is today. Let us not be the Church which opened up in the 60's and went back in the 2000's.
The days of the Tridentine Mass are over; it is a tradition best kept in the history books and nowhere else! Its an element which would only serve to weaken the Catholic community and not strenghten.
The way to strenghten the faith is by living the faith and believing the faith and not by turning the faith into a mere living museum of traditions! <!-- spacer for skins that want sidebar and main to be the same height-->
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Oremus pro pontifice nostro Benedicto. Dominus conservet eum et vivificet eum et beatum faciat eum in terra et non tradat eum in animam inimicorum eius.
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Kuntent
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Reply To Pro%5FTridentina
(Date Posted:08/17/2009 07:03 AM)
Ghaziz Angelo,
Int ghidt:
Reply to Pro_Tridentina (08/17/2009 01:34 AM)
Let us not become the Christian version of Iran! Iran under the Shah had all the modern commodities of western life and indeed had a western culture. It was the ascension to power of the Ayatollah Khomeini that Iran reverted back to the strictly Muslim society it is today. Let us not be the Church which opened up in the 60's and went back in the 2000's.
The days of the Tridentine Mass are over; it is a tradition best kept in the history books and nowhere else! Its an element which would only serve to weaken the Catholic community and not strenghten.
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Kuntent
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